[he tents his fingers, back to looking slightly ominous, but looking down at the datapads.]
The longer we are here and the longer we are put through the usual things that Cybertronians end up going through, the more timeline and multiverse issues that wouldn't normally come up come up. With the space bridge, I've seen some mechs have a general sense of a get out of jail free card, or-- get out of the morgue free. People disappear at random and there's no way to predict what person will drop out of that bridge next.
[he puts a hand on one of the datapads, sliding it forward for rung to read. it's all of this, but in a lot more detail. shy i love you but i am not writing an actual academic paper on this stuff.]
This ain't somethin' we would have to deal with in our own universes-- I don't think, at least. Not mine, at the moment. I wanted to know your thoughts. How do you help someone deal with their own death, once they've been revived and come back? We are used to our kind dying, but suddenly just not existing with no cause or reason is entirely different from being deactivated via damage. What treatment could you offer to someone who is seeing the ghost of a dead friend or loved one in someone who is essentially that same person, but from an entirely different timeline where they never knew the bereaved? That isn't just having a similar frame, that is the same person.
[he looks back down at the datapads as he says this, expression pinching.]
My.. That is a pondersome conundrum. How does anyone process death. [ Rung waits a moment and orders a noncharged drink. ]
First we'll want to look how the patient in question deals with living in general. Consequences always exist no matter the form they take. I've considered the thoughts previously of a definite problem that might emerge from the fact we do not remain dead here... Three days minimum, isn't that what has been categorized?
[ As the drink arrives he takes a long sip ]
I thought to call it a Moribund or Nihil Paradox. The more we die and come back the more we seem to delude ourselves into the thought of nothing mattering.
Its a name in progress.. but that's not what matters, what matters is what I'm describing. A perversion and misplacement of immortality.
We are not immortal here, there is a chance some day that bridge will break for good. It must be reminded that death matters.
Even if we come back the lasting trauma that it happened still very much exists.
I had a similar line of thought. When I had... my own experience -- [he's not quite able to say outright died yet, for some reason he still hasn't quite peeled up from his own psyche.] -- I experienced several physical and mental symptoms. Severe lethargy, flashbacks thanks to the high stress of the situation. General weakness. These seem to be quite common.
[he curls a hand under his chin.]
I personally found the biggest struggle, on revival and on gettin' here to begin with, to be the continuity. I think it's different from just passin' out and the world goin' on around you. This is resetting your optics and waking up in a place where everything that mattered to you doesn't anymore, nor can you in any physical way get back to it. [his hand slides over to a rubix cube, fiddling with it.] Maybe I'm focusin' on the wrong things, but everything seems ramped up to extremes here, even if it doesn't initially seem like it. If a friend disappeared back home, at least I'd know they were somewhere in the universe dead or alive. Here it's like-- they ran out of existence juice and no-one could save them or do anything about it. It's a new level of helplessness.
I know we can't solve it. But there has to be a better way than sorry, bud, but we're all in the same boat here! Especially if this is permanent.
Ratchet... This is all shoved in a grief process. Its frightening, unsettling, and beyond comprehension. We're cosmically torn from our own universes... I... I apparently may of been erased from my own world...
I do not know if this ship is the cause of it, but I no longer exist home. [ How much is true is not certain, how much is just ramped up Brainstorm trying to solve a problem. ]
I hope the conclusion is wrong, but I'll use me as an example in this scenario. Perhaps a way to treat one like me, is to rationalize the facts.
First off, I am standing here existing in this very moment am I not?
Second, there have been several moments in which time is proven to be wonky in this hub universe... thus making it likely I am only erased in one set of timelines. At least one must believe I am temporarily removed?
Thirdly, the trauma I face on mortality existing is valid and should be talked through.
Fourth: There is proof such as yourself that returning home and growing as a person is possible. There is proof we do not just vanish and disappear.. we might simply be returned.
Fifth. Locate the trauma cores and work to analyze what is the root problem.
[ HE takes another sip and taps his finger on the glass. ]
Its a work in process to deal with how the Hub Dimension works and the different ways we connnect and live inside it.
Also forgive my hypothetical example .. it was easier to use myself and not risk confidentiality.
I wouldn't expect you to be usin' an actual example. [he says as he considers all this. perhaps he was making it far more complicated than it needed to be? his expression shifts a little when rung reminds him that people have been known to go back and then come back here, it happened with him and grimlock, but the fact they haven't returned bothers him. it makes logical sense they may have just stayed where they went back to, but unfortunately his little obsession with that particular problem isn't making him see it logically or rationally. he's stuck himself in the paradox of needing to see them to know they're fine in their own reality, but needing to physically see them to do that, and not being able to do that unless they come back here. his brain is dinging around like a fork in a garbage disposal.
he says nothing about rung's admission of his disappearance, knowing that they're here to talk about work, not what's happened to them. he appreciates rung not commenting on his own admission. functional adults, maybe?
ratchet opts not to mention that while he has been vaguely doing this - so it's a relief to know he was in the right ballpark - he also just doesn't feel like it's enough. like he really should know more or be better.] You're right, though that's only one part of it. You see the kind of turbofox hole we end up going down? How would you help someone who's partner shows up but is a version of them that doesn't know them? I know this is all just modified grief, but...
Ratchet, you're talking to someone who's a frequent victim of people literally not remembering my existence unless I'm regularly interacting with them.
[ Rung laughs and its soft, though one can't help but wonder what the bitter undertone is. ]
There is an unfortunate reality that many here might not know another due to time shenanigans. Universal differences, a paradox occurred.
You're right though, it is a hole that's dug... I think though a course of action for helping one with a version of a loved one that doesn't belong to them is ... find the differences. See it no differently then when home we find similar molds, or similar shared names... Its a start. But you must remember this new entity is not the one you know.
That's... not normal. [he hadn't realised it was an actual issue with multiple people. rung doesn't occupy much of ratchet's thoughts personally, but he's not a patient. though hopefully now a coworker, so maybe!] That's also what I do--have done.
[it is probably, somehow, breaking confidentiality to express that every medic here is likely seeing ghosts.]
We can work on this more. It doesn't have to be right now. I just wanted to float the ideas to you. It's nice to speak about things in a professional capacity with you.
[ Rung reaches his hand over and touches Ratchet's briefly. ]
Yes, My door is open to you. In the end we're stuck on this ship in some cosmic nightmare, but we're here to help eachother how ever we can.
Serendipitous. Even if that happiness is priced with temporarily losing home. wE at least have one another to lean on in this foreign hub world.
[ Rung leans back and removes his glasses to clean them a moment. ]
And don't worry to hard about my condition, the more I'm near the lost lighters the more they seem to remember me. We can figure out the cause and effects on another day.
[he barely returns the gesture, tapping the top of rung's hand with his index finger.]
I appreciate it. [and he means it.] That's what I've been trying to say as well.
[a frown marrs his expression for a moment, but ratchet relents. it doesn't sound like a medical thing, and he has to accept when he can't do anything about something. that's something brainstorm could work on, maybe.]
I should tell you-- I've been training up Krok as well. We discussed it and having a Decepticon available seemed like a good idea. It can't be ignored that we are both Autobots, especially here.
Agreed. I think it would work out for the best with two mentors on hand for him. Specially now of all times. It might cause some controversy that there are two Autobots mentoring the only Decepticon Therapist but... its not like we have a pick of Decepticons Therapists to choose from to help him.
[ Rung hums as he returns his glasses to place. ]
I have been meaning to read up on Decepticon social dynamics.. Though I suppose I could ask around the friendly Decepticons for first hand knowledge. I want to help Krok, but I am biased in a lot of ways. So perhaps learning from anothers point of view could be beneficial for all.
Risk of? Being Biased and too Autobotic? No no, Do not fret, this is why I've been hunting the library for books on different point of views.
Little tougher when... there's so many different type of Decepticons in different dimensions. I may eventually just ask for first hand accounts... which i admit might be sus [ he says it with a Rodimus impression without even meaning to]
I'm not worried about bias. I'm giving him what anyone would learn and trusting that he knows how to adapt it where necessary. [it's a big thing krok has undertaken, he knows.] I think any Decepticon or Autobot that can't be treated with modified conventional stuff is a special case that goes far beyond simply sitting and talking about it.
That is a fair point. I think I am up to task with mentoring. I just want to understand the sides to it all.. [ Shaking his head. ]
Perhaps my problem is I'm digging too fast. I want to help as many as I can. [ He then speaks lower. Not sure what he can really trust. Himself, or another therapist. After All he spoken so much to Froid about his theories, and advancements as well as his hidden problems and it does backfire...
Perhaps its nothing.. Froid was a just copy cat, but... is it wrong to be happy a friend may be dead back home... Is it wrong to worry if he ever arrived. ]
I get that. [and he does-- given both their professions, it's an inevitability. it's not like ratchet doesn't know what he's doing to himself.] But you gotta plan this stuff rather than jumping into it. That way you perform up to standard.
You have no idea how good it feels to be able to speak to someone on this in this way... Its been a long time since I had a peer review my efforts. Or vice verse. [ Even if that nagging fear of his work will be stolen again. ]
I feel like I can actually relax some and have someone to tell eachother when we're slipping up or such.
[he smiles, even if it doesn't feel as genuine as he wants it to.]
I've felt much the same, bein' in such a crowded medibay. Even talkin' to my own counterparts! That's probably egotistical, but I couldn't care less. It's true. You might also want to corral that larger Ratchet into sessions. He needs it.
I think I would be too embarrassed to. Or something of that matter. Ah... but alittle ego never killed anyone. Sometimes its healthy, Even I gotta flex the ego muscles too.... not here though because that is enough boasting from me.... [ Takes his drink once more and sips on it. ]
Now, lets take this moment to get in a treat, I've been eyeing the menu last I was here and I want to try one of those Rust Sticks and perhaps pile back up on snacks and candy.
I diagnose you with incorrigible sweet tooth. [he says immediately, apparently foregoing ordering anything himself.] Now, don't load up too much on the candy. Primus knows how that stuff can gum up your insides...
[hey, how long has it been since someone told rung to watch how much candy he eats??]
Well, I'll get three extras just to spite you. An act of malicious disobedience which will haunt me for three days and no more. [ He giggles and pops a compartment to remove stacks of boxes. ]
Who needs subspace for everything... now lets see what's empty. And if you must know, most of it is to hand out. Its amazing how much more behaved a mech will be when they're occupied with something sweet.
Only three days! [he barks with a laugh.] I'll keep my office open for three days then!
[ratchet takes this moment to mentally catalogue his own subspace; several broken rubix cubes and a bunch of data pads and energon emergen-c. very healthy. not hypocritical at all.]
Oh, I always keep a box of candy available when I can. If nothing else, a grown mech who gets a handful of candy given to them is usually flabbergasted enough to stop bein' an issue. ... I think it's nice, too, after all the times we've had to ration or go without.
Precisely. And its quite endearing to see a mech previously yelling at you now stuffed their mouth with a snack. Though that doesn't stop a few from still attempting to uh hum.. talk shit.
[ Rung holds his hand to his mouth and chuckles more. then sets aside 2 old boxes. ]
Empty guess I just need to replace these two. [ He hands over a box that's still half full ] care for some? I think soon as I get my extra treats and my drink finished I might need to head out.
Nothing important, I just feel the need to do a little nothing for an hour.
Or hit you. [he says with a sigh. unfortunately, even with it being a while ago, bambi is not the first one to lash out at him and likely won't be the last. it's a dangerous part of the job rung is likely well aware of.
he still feels awful about bambi. sometimes he loads himself up on work just so he doesn't have to spend any time inside his own head, a habit that's common to many people. he doesn't think about antler's words as much but there's no denying to him that it wouldn't have got that bad if he'd given the prime more attention and looked after him the way he should have.] I'm alright, thanks. I gotta get back to the medbay-- thanks for droppin' by. We can talk about all this more when we've got more time.
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momijizukamori
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 02:17 pm (UTC)The longer we are here and the longer we are put through the usual things that Cybertronians end up going through, the more timeline and multiverse issues that wouldn't normally come up come up. With the space bridge, I've seen some mechs have a general sense of a get out of jail free card, or-- get out of the morgue free. People disappear at random and there's no way to predict what person will drop out of that bridge next.
[he puts a hand on one of the datapads, sliding it forward for rung to read. it's all of this, but in a lot more detail. shy i love you but i am not writing an actual academic paper on this stuff.]
This ain't somethin' we would have to deal with in our own universes-- I don't think, at least. Not mine, at the moment. I wanted to know your thoughts. How do you help someone deal with their own death, once they've been revived and come back? We are used to our kind dying, but suddenly just not existing with no cause or reason is entirely different from being deactivated via damage. What treatment could you offer to someone who is seeing the ghost of a dead friend or loved one in someone who is essentially that same person, but from an entirely different timeline where they never knew the bereaved? That isn't just having a similar frame, that is the same person.
[he looks back down at the datapads as he says this, expression pinching.]
Y'know. For starters.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 02:29 pm (UTC)First we'll want to look how the patient in question deals with living in general. Consequences always exist no matter the form they take. I've considered the thoughts previously of a definite problem that might emerge from the fact we do not remain dead here... Three days minimum, isn't that what has been categorized?
[ As the drink arrives he takes a long sip ]
I thought to call it a Moribund or Nihil Paradox. The more we die and come back the more we seem to delude ourselves into the thought of nothing mattering.
Its a name in progress.. but that's not what matters, what matters is what I'm describing. A perversion and misplacement of immortality.
We are not immortal here, there is a chance some day that bridge will break for good. It must be reminded that death matters.
Even if we come back the lasting trauma that it happened still very much exists.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 02:56 pm (UTC)[he curls a hand under his chin.]
I personally found the biggest struggle, on revival and on gettin' here to begin with, to be the continuity. I think it's different from just passin' out and the world goin' on around you. This is resetting your optics and waking up in a place where everything that mattered to you doesn't anymore, nor can you in any physical way get back to it. [his hand slides over to a rubix cube, fiddling with it.] Maybe I'm focusin' on the wrong things, but everything seems ramped up to extremes here, even if it doesn't initially seem like it. If a friend disappeared back home, at least I'd know they were somewhere in the universe dead or alive. Here it's like-- they ran out of existence juice and no-one could save them or do anything about it. It's a new level of helplessness.
I know we can't solve it. But there has to be a better way than sorry, bud, but we're all in the same boat here! Especially if this is permanent.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 03:13 pm (UTC)I do not know if this ship is the cause of it, but I no longer exist home. [ How much is true is not certain, how much is just ramped up Brainstorm trying to solve a problem. ]
I hope the conclusion is wrong, but I'll use me as an example in this scenario. Perhaps a way to treat one like me, is to rationalize the facts.
First off, I am standing here existing in this very moment am I not?
Second, there have been several moments in which time is proven to be wonky in this hub universe... thus making it likely I am only erased in one set of timelines. At least one must believe I am temporarily removed?
Thirdly, the trauma I face on mortality existing is valid and should be talked through.
Fourth: There is proof such as yourself that returning home and growing as a person is possible. There is proof we do not just vanish and disappear.. we might simply be returned.
Fifth. Locate the trauma cores and work to analyze what is the root problem.
[ HE takes another sip and taps his finger on the glass. ]
Its a work in process to deal with how the Hub Dimension works and the different ways we connnect and live inside it.
Also forgive my hypothetical example .. it was easier to use myself and not risk confidentiality.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 03:42 pm (UTC)he says nothing about rung's admission of his disappearance, knowing that they're here to talk about work, not what's happened to them. he appreciates rung not commenting on his own admission. functional adults, maybe?
ratchet opts not to mention that while he has been vaguely doing this - so it's a relief to know he was in the right ballpark - he also just doesn't feel like it's enough. like he really should know more or be better.] You're right, though that's only one part of it. You see the kind of turbofox hole we end up going down? How would you help someone who's partner shows up but is a version of them that doesn't know them? I know this is all just modified grief, but...
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 03:57 pm (UTC)[ Rung laughs and its soft, though one can't help but wonder what the bitter undertone is. ]
There is an unfortunate reality that many here might not know another due to time shenanigans. Universal differences, a paradox occurred.
You're right though, it is a hole that's dug... I think though a course of action for helping one with a version of a loved one that doesn't belong to them is ... find the differences. See it no differently then when home we find similar molds, or similar shared names... Its a start. But you must remember this new entity is not the one you know.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 04:18 pm (UTC)[it is probably, somehow, breaking confidentiality to express that every medic here is likely seeing ghosts.]
We can work on this more. It doesn't have to be right now. I just wanted to float the ideas to you. It's nice to speak about things in a professional capacity with you.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 04:32 pm (UTC)Yes, My door is open to you. In the end we're stuck on this ship in some cosmic nightmare, but we're here to help eachother how ever we can.
Serendipitous. Even if that happiness is priced with temporarily losing home. wE at least have one another to lean on in this foreign hub world.
[ Rung leans back and removes his glasses to clean them a moment. ]
And don't worry to hard about my condition, the more I'm near the lost lighters the more they seem to remember me. We can figure out the cause and effects on another day.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 04:43 pm (UTC)I appreciate it. [and he means it.] That's what I've been trying to say as well.
[a frown marrs his expression for a moment, but ratchet relents. it doesn't sound like a medical thing, and he has to accept when he can't do anything about something. that's something brainstorm could work on, maybe.]
I should tell you-- I've been training up Krok as well. We discussed it and having a Decepticon available seemed like a good idea. It can't be ignored that we are both Autobots, especially here.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 04:48 pm (UTC)[ Rung hums as he returns his glasses to place. ]
I have been meaning to read up on Decepticon social dynamics.. Though I suppose I could ask around the friendly Decepticons for first hand knowledge. I want to help Krok, but I am biased in a lot of ways. So perhaps learning from anothers point of view could be beneficial for all.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 04:53 pm (UTC)[his expression flinches again, in that minute way it does.]
I can mentor him myself. If you're worried about risk, then that takes out half of it immediately. We're getting on fine.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 04:58 pm (UTC)Little tougher when... there's so many different type of Decepticons in different dimensions. I may eventually just ask for first hand accounts... which i admit might be sus [ he says it with a Rodimus impression without even meaning to]
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 05:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 05:20 pm (UTC)Perhaps my problem is I'm digging too fast. I want to help as many as I can. [ He then speaks lower. Not sure what he can really trust. Himself, or another therapist. After All he spoken so much to Froid about his theories, and advancements as well as his hidden problems and it does backfire...
Perhaps its nothing.. Froid was a just copy cat, but... is it wrong to be happy a friend may be dead back home... Is it wrong to worry if he ever arrived. ]
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 05:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 06:03 pm (UTC)I feel like I can actually relax some and have someone to tell eachother when we're slipping up or such.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 06:16 pm (UTC)I've felt much the same, bein' in such a crowded medibay. Even talkin' to my own counterparts! That's probably egotistical, but I couldn't care less. It's true. You might also want to corral that larger Ratchet into sessions. He needs it.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 06:22 pm (UTC)I think I would be too embarrassed to. Or something of that matter. Ah... but alittle ego never killed anyone. Sometimes its healthy, Even I gotta flex the ego muscles too.... not here though because that is enough boasting from me.... [ Takes his drink once more and sips on it. ]
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 06:34 pm (UTC)...
That was a joke. For the record.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-11 06:48 pm (UTC)Now, lets take this moment to get in a treat, I've been eyeing the menu last I was here and I want to try one of those Rust Sticks and perhaps pile back up on snacks and candy.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-12 11:33 am (UTC)[hey, how long has it been since someone told rung to watch how much candy he eats??]
no subject
Date: 2023-04-12 12:45 pm (UTC)Who needs subspace for everything... now lets see what's empty. And if you must know, most of it is to hand out. Its amazing how much more behaved a mech will be when they're occupied with something sweet.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-12 01:09 pm (UTC)[ratchet takes this moment to mentally catalogue his own subspace; several broken rubix cubes and a bunch of data pads and energon emergen-c. very healthy. not hypocritical at all.]
Oh, I always keep a box of candy available when I can. If nothing else, a grown mech who gets a handful of candy given to them is usually flabbergasted enough to stop bein' an issue. ... I think it's nice, too, after all the times we've had to ration or go without.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-12 01:31 pm (UTC)[ Rung holds his hand to his mouth and chuckles more. then sets aside 2 old boxes. ]
Empty guess I just need to replace these two. [ He hands over a box that's still half full ] care for some? I think soon as I get my extra treats and my drink finished I might need to head out.
Nothing important, I just feel the need to do a little nothing for an hour.
no subject
Date: 2023-04-12 02:27 pm (UTC)he still feels awful about bambi. sometimes he loads himself up on work just so he doesn't have to spend any time inside his own head, a habit that's common to many people. he doesn't think about antler's words as much but there's no denying to him that it wouldn't have got that bad if he'd given the prime more attention and looked after him the way he should have.] I'm alright, thanks. I gotta get back to the medbay-- thanks for droppin' by. We can talk about all this more when we've got more time.
(no subject)
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